User List Suggestion

You know how you bring up the list of all users, and you can sort by several things? i'd like to have a sort field added to sort by number of actual hits.

It's easy to get to the top of the list by just entering in gobs and gobs of bills and getting no hits or very few hits.

There should also be no cutoff for bonus to track points when you get a hit and your hit rate is over 10%.

I proudly maintain a 12% hit rate and better - except for when I first enter a scad of bills...and except for people with like one bill entered and one hit...I have the highest hit rate sitewide.

But it does not seem like this is rewarded...in terms of Track Points.

You have some valid points. Why should the Top Users list reward those who have not even logged on for hundreds of days? Five of the Top 25 are idle 225 days or longer.

If there was a way to apply a penalty of, say 10 times the number of idle days, to the formula - that would cause inactive users to move further down the list.

dctim wrote:You have some valid points. Why should the Top Users list reward those who have not even logged on for hundreds of days? Five of the Top 25 are idle 225 days or longer.

If there was a way to apply a penalty of, say 10 times the number of idle days, to the formula - that would cause inactive users to move further down the list.

Exactly.
Why should inactive users, inactive that long...be occupying top spots on the list.

Likewise...why should someone get to occupy a top spot on the list, JUST FOR ENTERING SCADS AND SCADS OF BILLS? They should be there for entering a lot AND GETTING LOTS OF HITS.

Here's a suggestion on how to solve the problem.
Bills entered should not be automatically one track point. That should be based on their hit rate - as bonus for hits are.
Here's what I mean...

Hit Rate 0 - 1 % - bill enty gets 0.1 track points
Hit Rate 1 - 2 % - bill entry gets 0.2 track points
Hit rate 2 - 3% - bill entry gets 0.3 track points

and so on up to where 9 - 10 % Hit rates then get a full track point for a bill entry.

and then run a retroactive re-scoring.

This would reward people who are getting hits.


Under the current system, I could get a job as a bank teller...pull a brick of ones out of the vault, note the serial numbers, never even have or stamp the bills...go home, enter the serial numbers, and jack myself up 1000 track points just like that (yeah, it would drag down my hit rate, but if I did not care about maintaining a high hit rate, and just wanted to run up the scoreboard, I could do that.)

Examples of the problem with the current system:

I am currently #7 on the list. Jackson Stamper is number 6. He has 4,000 more bills entered than I...but fewer hits. However, he is near 1,000 hits of his own, and DESERVES to be ahead of me.

Mike S of south Weber, UT is #8. Also has more bills in that I do...has near 600 hits of his own. If he just entered 1,000 more bills, he would overtake me. With 600 hits of his own, I have no problem with that...let him overtake me if he can, he would deserve it.

BUT - EJKorvette is number 9 - if he just entered 1,700 more bills, he, WITH ZERO HITS - would overtake me.
Cylon is Number 10. If he entered just 2,000 more bills, he, too, would overtake me...WITH JUST 41 HITS!!

Do you mean to tell me he deserves to be #1 in PA just because he enters a crapload of bills, and gets few hits? If he had 500-700 hits, then that would be fine.

I have near 1,200 hits...do you mean to say someone with just 41 should be ranked ahead of me?

I maintain a high hit-rate, and I am penalized for this, because of the current cut-off at 10% hit rate, not getting more Bonus Track Points. I think that is wrong.

One thing that would alleviate the problems would be to get rid of the cap - and run a retroactive re-scoring for everyone. And the second thing would be to penalize long-term inactive users - even WG? does this. And THEN, WG automatically sets them back to where they should be once they become active once again.

If someone wants to enter scads and scads and scads of bills to get a top spot, I guess there isn't much to do to stop them...but Track Points should be based a lot more on how many HITS you have...not how many bills you can enter. and one should not be penalized - as we are now...for maintaining a high Hit Rate.

I don't mean to be whining or complaining here, but I do think there is some validity to this.

I agree that inactive users shouldn't be high in the standings just because they've entered a lot of bills. I'm on the fence about penalizing for lack of hits. EJKorvette admits to entering nothing but stealths. He handles a lot of bills with his job and is able to enter them, but not allowed to mark them. Having him near the top of the leaderboard doesn't seem right. However, if someone is living in a small city, or a remote or isolated place, should they be penalized because their bills aren't circulating to more populous regions and getting hits?

I believe the cap on hits is not 10%, but a bonus of 10 points per hit. Here is what Markus has on the site for points awarded for hits:

Track Points
you will receive Track Points:
a) 1 Point for every entered bill
b) 1 Point for every hit PLUS 1/5th of your hit percentage (10 points max)
so if your hit percentage goes up to 16% you will get 1 Point + 3.2 Points for every hit

Tony wrote:I agree that inactive users shouldn't be high in the standings just because they've entered a lot of bills. I'm on the fence about penalizing for lack of hits. EJKorvette admits to entering nothing but stealths. He handles a lot of bills with his job and is able to enter them, but not allowed to mark them. Having him near the top of the leaderboard doesn't seem right. However, if someone is living in a small city, or a remote or isolated place, should they be penalized because their bills aren't circulating to more populous regions and getting hits?

I believe the cap on hits is not 10%, but a bonus of 10 points per hit. Here is what Markus has on the site for points awarded for hits:

Track Points
you will receive Track Points:
a) 1 Point for every entered bill
b) 1 Point for every hit PLUS 1/5th of your hit percentage (10 points max)
so if your hit percentage goes up to 16% you will get 1 Point + 3.2 Points for every hit

OK...but I still like tying the track points for entered bills to the hit rate.
Like I mentioned, a guy like EJKorvette...could sit there and NEVER EVEN BUY OR OWN THE BILLS....just grab a brick from the vault and know the serial numbers. How is that fair to me who has to buy all my bills...meaning if I don't have the spare money, I don't get bills to mark...but maybe he works at a bank, and does exactly what I just suggested. Why should he be way up the standings list?

I still think the emphasis on track points should be HITS not ENTRIES. Let's face it, our goal here is HITS. and those who maintain higher hit rates should be rewarded better.

Seriously, Tony...can you see what I am saying when I have a problem with Cylon pulling ahead of me in Pennsylvania...when he has but 41 hits to my near 1,200?? That just is not right.

Now, if he had more bills entered than me (which he does) AND had at least about 800 hits....then...him pulling ahead of me would not bother me. But someone with 41 hits should rank higher than someone with 1,200. No way can you think that is right.

The suggestion I have for re-structuring Track Points for entires would help solve this problem.

One bill entered = (1 Track Point * (Hit Rate Percentage/10))
This way, if one has a hit rate of ZERO...then they get ZERO.
If they had a hit rate of 1% then they would get 0.1 Track Point per entry.

You'd cap it at one full Track Point...so that MY bill entry would be 1 Track Point, and not 1.2 Track Points, even though I have a 12% Hit Rate. the point is there should be far more rewards for hits...rather than just entries. anyone can jack up entries. Like I said...how hard would it be, if you worked at a bank...to grab a brick, and write the start and end serial number down....then go home, and enter all those bills you never had to buy or even had possession of...and did not mark?

Even WG? gives no George Score to people with no hits. You have to have at least one hit before you get any score. And hits are worth a lot more towards your George Score than bill entries are, which makes sense.

Likewise, on WG? long-term inactive people end up with eventually, a zero George Score...which is then restored once they log back in and become active.

Now, I like this site BETTER than WG for many reasons...but the scoring system there makes more sense, because it rewards HITS far more than entries.

Kalisiin,

I have runs some simple formulas in order to address your concerns. First, I simplified the TD formula.

My simple points = Bills Entered + (Bills Hit * (1 + Hit Pct))

This actually moves your from # 7 to # 10, probably not what you had in mind.

I then apply Bonus Points - to be computed if a user has logged in in the last 30 days.

My Bonus Points = My Simple Points + (My Simple Points * Hit Pct)

This vaults you back into the # 7 slot, but by a razor thin margin over Mike S.

I then apply Penalty Points based on # of Days Inactive.

My Final TD Points = My Bonus Points - (Inactive Days * 10)

This final calculation Zeros out Track Points to anyone who is inactive and/or has a low # of entries.

For instance a user with 22 Entries, 2 Hits and 3 Days of Inactivity goes to Zero. The current # 15, 20, 23 and 25 also go to Zero.

dctim wrote:Kalisiin,

I have runs some simple formulas in order to address your concerns. First, I simplified the TD formula.

My simple points = Bills Entered + (Bills Hit * (1 + Hit Pct))

This actually moves your from # 7 to # 10, probably not what you had in mind.

I then apply Bonus Points - to be computed if a user has logged in in the last 30 days.

My Bonus Points = My Simple Points + (My Simple Points * Hit Pct)

This vaults you back into the # 7 slot, but by a razor thin margin over Mike S.

I then apply Penalty Points based on # of Days Inactive.

My Final TD Points = My Bonus Points - (Inactive Days * 10)

This final calculation Zeros out Track Points to anyone who is inactive and/or has a low # of entries.

For instance a user with 22 Entries, 2 Hits and 3 Days of Inactivity goes to Zero. The current # 15, 20, 23 and 25 also go to Zero.

Actually, I do not care if I go from #7 to #10...IF the points actually reward hits more than entries.
And I mean hits should be rewarded FAR more than just entries.

But your formula did not consider any points for HITS.

My own suggestion, as I said...
Leave Hit rewards as they are described by Tony.
Have entry points go to being as follows:

Hit rate 0-1% = 0.1 Track Points per entry
Hit Rate 1-2% = 0.2 Track Points per entry

and so on...up to the point where a bill entry is one full track point and no higher.

SO...even that would still seem to penalize someone like me - or you - who maintains a hit rate higher than 10% but it is something I could live with...because it would make it hard for people to just run up the scoreboard with entries and getting no or few hits.

Seriously, Tim...do you think there is ANY way that someone should rank higher in PA than I do...when they have but 41 hits to my near 1200?? Seriously??

Do you see what I'm saying?

If I rank 10 or 12 or 50...I care not....as long as those who rank above me actually DESERVE to be there...by generating a decent amount of hits.

Like I said...with Cylon as an example...with his amount of entries - if he had, say, 800 hits...I would not mind him outranking me - he HAS entered more bills. but outranking me with just 41 hits?? THAT is absurd.

Change in TD entry points

I just wanted to point out we had a similar discussion about bill entries being fewer points, thereby making hits more valuable. The current discussion is far more indepth about the changes being made, but I thought the previous discussion might have some relevance.

Okay, I'm taking another stab at this:

Kalisiin Points = (Bills Entered * (Hit Pct/10)) + Bills Hit

This takes EJK's Track Points down to Zero. That doesn't seem quite right, either, does it.

Let's say I plug and chug *somebody else's* equation ...

The Top 4 stay the same. You move to 5th, Jackson stays at 6, D.Dave looses 2 slots to 7th, I gain 4 slots to 8th, Matt gains 6 slots to 11th, cylon looses 2 slots and drops to 12th and EJK looses 11 slots and comes in 20th.

Here is my latest:

New Points = MAX(((Natural Log(Bills Entered) + Natural Log(MAX(Bills Hit,1)))*3000)-(Idle Days*100),0)

This equation rewards Hit Percentage and punishes Idle Days. The constants of 3000 and 100 are my way of trying to get the results close to the current Points Totals without going way out wacky with math.

The big winners are me, Matt and M1 Garand who gain 3, 5 and 7 slots respectfully. EJK still looses 10 slots, but nobody else moves by more than 2 slots up or down.

dctim wrote:Okay, I'm taking another stab at this:

Kalisiin Points = (Bills Entered * (Hit Pct/10)) + Bills Hit

This takes EJK's Track Points down to Zero. That doesn't seem quite right, either, does it.

Let's say I plug and chug *somebody else's* equation ...

The Top 4 stay the same. You move to 5th, Jackson stays at 6, D.Dave looses 2 slots to 7th, I gain 4 slots to 8th, Matt gains 6 slots to 11th, cylon looses 2 slots and drops to 12th and EJK looses 11 slots and comes in 20th.

Here is my latest:

New Points = MAX(((Natural Log(Bills Entered) + Natural Log(MAX(Bills Hit,1)))*3000)-(Idle Days*100),0)

This equation rewards Hit Percentage and punishes Idle Days. The constants of 3000 and 100 are my way of trying to get the results close to the current Points Totals without going way out wacky with math.

The big winners are me, Matt and M1 Garand who gain 3, 5 and 7 slots respectfully. EJK still looses 10 slots, but nobody else moves by more than 2 slots up or down.

Well, your equation seems the best yet.
I am not trying to jump up the list, I'm just as happy if I stay at 7 , move to #5 or even #9...so long as the points are awarded more apportioned towards hits rather than entries...and idleness is punished.

I just don't think someone with just 41 hits should be in a position to suddenly outrank me in Pennsylvania, just because he seems to be able to enter scads and scads of bills. When and if all those entered bills turn into hits, and then he gets ahead of me, I will wholeheartedly congratulate him.

But I think you and anyone else here who is at all reasonable can see what I'm saying...that someone with just 41 hits does not deserve to outrank someone with 1200 - regardless of how many bills they have entered. I mean, I could just as easily jack up my own numbers too, by entering a brick of serial numbers I never even saw or had possession of. I could do it. But that is not what this is supposed to be about.

In fact, just to make the point about my own integrity on this: My mother, as many of you know, is a Tracker, too. Her name is YellowRose. We agreed early on, and still adhere to this - no hitting each other's bills. I could grab a quick fifty hits here and there, if I wanted to do that, and, in my opinion, cheat. but that isn't what this is about, either.

Both of us agreed that if we happened across one another's bills in natural circulation, over 100 road-miles from home, then we would enter it. This has not happened to either of us yet.

This site is supposed to be about HITS.
As it stands now, entries are disproportionately awarded. hits should be rewarded far more than they are now...and entries rewarded far less than they are now...and idleness should get you bumped. Look at runninchik, I think, without looking, she is #32, and has not even logged on in TWO YEARS.
(Edit: she is actually #27, and has been idle for fifteen months.)

I really hope, tim, that you will support me and take this idea and argument to Markus, and help have our points system overhauled in a manner that favors those who get more hits, and not people who just blindly enter scads of bills that it costs them nothing to get.

That's my big issue. IT COSTS ME MONEY TO GET THE BILLS I ENTER. Why should someone be able to find a backdoor and get free, unlimited access to bills...and stealth them all, get no hits, and just run up a Track Score?

Well, I looked at the context of the previous discussion, and it seems there is definitely support for my position - ironically, I had a different view last time this came up. Back then I did not see the problems I am seeing now.

But it would seem tony, tim and I already...three heavy-hitters on this site...all support making hits worth more in relation to entries. we have bandied about different ways of making it happen, but we all seem to support it. Now to get Markus on-board. I liked Tims' formula from before in this thread, as it would jar things up the least. But it WOULD address the issues going forward.

I'm pretty sure others with large amounts of hits up at the top of the board would support this. I think only the people who are running up the scoreboard...would be opposed to this.

fact is...this site is about HITS. and HITS should be far more rewarded. and the people highest up the scoreboard should be those with the most HITS. Period.

Gosh, I don't think that this site is about Hits - I thought it was about the hobby of tracking money with a particular emphasis on lack of drama.

Hits are simply a by-product to the process of Entering and Spending, with an optional Marking component.

The rule at that *other place* was, Enter, Enter, Enter, Mark, Mark, Mark, Spend, Spend, Spend and the Hits would follow. It took me 2 years and 6,500 bills *over there* to get my Hit Rate over 10 %. My number of Hits here are reasonably close to where I was after I began *over there*, but my hit rate is higher here because how I learned to Mark better (I also don't enter as many bills as I once did).

Even if you should drop to # 2 in PA sometime soon, I am not in a hurry to change the current Track Points calculation. It may be quirky, or even dumb, but it is completely ours.

dctim wrote:Gosh, I don't think that this site is about Hits - I thought it was about the hobby of tracking money with a particular emphasis on lack of drama.

Hits are simply a by-product to the process of Entering and Spending, with an optional Marking component.

The rule at that *other place* was, Enter, Enter, Enter, Mark, Mark, Mark, Spend, Spend, Spend and the Hits would follow. It took me 2 years and 6,500 bills *over there* to get my Hit Rate over 10 %. My number of Hits here are reasonably close to where I was after I began *over there*, but my hit rate is higher here because how I learned to Mark better (I also don't enter as many bills as I once did).

Even if you should drop to # 2 in PA sometime soon, I am not in a hurry to change the current Track Points calculation. It may be quirky, or even dumb, but it is completely ours.

Well, I am sorry, but it would ROYALLY PISS ME OFF...to be #2 in PA to someone with only 41 lousy hits.

Entries DAMN WELL should not be worth as much as they are, and even Tony agrees with me on this.
i'm sorry, but I am really annoyed over this. How would YOU like to be #2 in your state - after all your hard work...to someone who took the easy way and just ran up the board entering bills like nuts? LET'S SEE THE HITS THEN IF HE OVERTAKES ME, FINE. I'll even congratulate him then... but not with 41 lousy hits.

Umm, I am # 2 in my state. It happened when Markus moved here from Texas. He was kind enough to send me an "I hope you won't be mad" email about it at the time.

My hard work, or lack thereof, have nothing to do with anything. This is a game and a hobby for me. It is a bunch of Ones and Zeros in a computer system.

Things will only bother you if you let them. Relax. Drink some wine. Find some enjoyment here. Or don't. I certainly can't make you.

dctim wrote:Umm, I am # 2 in my state. It happened when Markus moved here from Texas. He was kind enough to send me an "I hope you won't be mad" email about it at the time.

My hard work, or lack thereof, have nothing to do with anything. This is a game and a hobby for me. It is a bunch of Ones and Zeros in a computer system.

Things will only bother you if you let them. Relax. Drink some wine. Find some enjoyment here. Or don't. I certainly can't make you.

Still, Markus DESERVES to be #1 in Virginia. He didn't do it back-handed by just entering scads of bills. He moved. He WAS #1 in Texas before he was #1 in VA.

Now, if tony moved to PA, I would have no problem being #2 in PA.

By CYLON?? no, I'm sorry, THAT really irks the hell out of me. Howe the HELL does someone legitimately and honestly get their hands on that many bills...and then get that few hits? It's wrong. Whatever he is doing has got to be a back-handed shortcut, and he does not deserve to be #1 in PA...I do.

And entries are WAY over-valued in our current system.

You have said so before...as have I, as have tony.

I'm not asking for anything unreasonable here. I am asking that, if someone is going to be ranked ahead of me...then they damn well should have to EARN it. not do it back-handed ways.

In my opinion, Cylon has earned should he take over the #1 spot in Pennsylvania. It takes a lot of time to enter bills, and time isn't free. K, maybe you should go back to WG because you seem way to competitive for this site.

Jackson Stamper wrote:In my opinion, Cylon has earned should he take over the #1 spot in Pennsylvania. It takes a lot of time to enter bills, and time isn't free. K, maybe you should go back to WG because you seem way to competitive for this site.

Yeah. real hard to go to the Bill entry Page...type in one serial number off a block...hit the fill in button, get 20 entries just like that - wash rinse and repeat...never even have possession of or mark the bills...let alone have it cost you any money.

No, sorry, someone with 41 hits does NOT deserve to be #1 over someone with 1200 hits, and, fortunately for me, Markus agrees with me on this point. I have been in communication.

YOU, Jackson...are saying what you are, I believe, out of a personal dislike for me. How would you like it if cylon moved to Michigan and replaced YOU as #1 in that fashion? Bet you wouldn't much appreciate it.

Like I said, if the guy had a fair amount of HITS...I would have no issue with it. But 41 does not outrank 1200 - not in this universe, and not in any other universe I'm aware of.

And if you aren't going to be competitive, what the hell is the point of keeping score?
Fact of the matter is...a bill entered should not be worth anywhere NEAR as much as a bill HIT. and you know I'm right.

no one should be able to just ENTER their way to a top spot on the list - those places should be occupied by the people who have HITS.

As a side note to this...it looks to me as if Diamondback Dave needs to have his points recalculated anyway, he should have more than he does.

He shows 18,438. He has 18,071 entries - and 643 hits. This tells me that, at the very least, he should have 18,700 - possibly more depending on his hit rate at the time of his hits...possibly as high as 19,000.

Kalisiin wrote:As a side note to this...it looks to me as if Diamondback Dave needs to have his points recalculated anyway, he should have more than he does.

He shows 18,438. He has 18,071 entries - and 643 hits. This tells me that, at the very least, he should have 18,700 - possibly more depending on his hit rate at the time of his hits...possibly as high as 19,000.

Yea, that definitely doesn't look right. Perhaps some kind of glitch? I wouldn't think that the Points calc would change for just one person.

Dave may have lost points because he and Darrel have entered so many of each others bills. I think we lose points if we enter more than 100 of another user's bills.

Tony wrote:Dave may have lost points because he and Darrel have entered so many of each others bills. I think we lose points if we enter more than 100 of another user's bills.

Hummm...you mean actually have points subtracted...or do you mean...just no more credit for hits from that user?

Kalisiin wrote:

Tony wrote:Dave may have lost points because he and Darrel have entered so many of each others bills. I think we lose points if we enter more than 100 of another user's bills.

Hummm...you mean actually have points subtracted...or do you mean...just no more credit for hits from that user?

The discussions we had about this at the time did include the possibility that someone could be penalized...

Post number two under this topic thread confirms the negative effect of hitting too many of another user's bills.

Thanks for the clarification.
I'm careful, when trading with another tracker...to be very clear we do not hit any more than one of each other's bills...preferably not any.

Hi everybody,

you guys made me read a long long thread.

So now my little input about TrackPoints. The idea was from the beginning to reward better hit rate with more points.
Also: 1 point per entry, because a big bill database helps everybody.
However, I see the problem, we need to have about 50 times more user to really get stealth hits going.

A hit entry point formula, and what the formula should and should not do:
- it should prevent a user from getting high amount of point just for entering bills like crazy
- it should not put a penalty on new user where the circulation time of bills is just not long enough
- it should put a penalty on inactive user

So yes, I like the idea to clean up the userlist rank and put a 12 month 100% penalty.
As for the bill entry penalty, the formula I saw makes sense however I am going to try to change all caps about the beginning and hit rate involved to not put a penalty on a new TD user.

Most likely I will try to program something like
Heavy user=10000+entries then every entered bill gets a penalty of the percentage hit rate in 3% to 100 subtracted from the 1 point capped on 0.1.
Meaning, if you managed to enter more than 10000 bills and your hit rate is only 0.5% then you will have to enter 6 bills to get one point.
if you have zero hits it has to be 10 bills entry to get 1 point.

Inactive user just get a 100% minus penalty whenever not logged in for 12 month+

I am still playing with numbers, so let me know what you guys think.

Markus