Informal Poll - Changing Trackdollar points calculation

Given that our Admin is a busy man and has not had much time to devote to site improvements....

Given that some of our frequent posters here at this forum feel strongly about this topic while others are not quite so passionate...

Would you...

(A) Be open to changing how Track Dollar calculates "points"?
(B) Be open to discussing what those changes might eventually become?
(c) Support those changes even if they adversely affect your current ranking?

Please give me some feedback - I certainly have not covered the major issues.

I like it the way it is.

I really do not care about track points or scores. I am interested in the hits and seeing where the bills go. Either way would work for me.

Not only am I open to changing it, I support and advocate it.

I do NOT think we should have the same, or even a similar scoring system to WG? We're a different site for a reason. That said, I have some suggestions that will alleviate a few of the problems that currently exist in our scoring system, which I will address below.

I would support the changes I am going to propose below, even if it adversely affected my ranking, because it would address certain problems.

As it is now a griefer (and let's face it griefers of this site DO exist) - can just sign up....enter in a bunch of random serial numbers of bills they never even saw or owned...and run up the scoreboard without even getting any hits.

Since the main purpose of the site is to get HITS...not just ENTRIES...the ratio of Track Points awarded for entries...should be based upon one's hit rate.

I know what Markus was trying to do, originally...encourage entries. But the way we are currently doing this...is ripe for abuse by griefers.

Thus, I propose entries be worth 1 Track Point each....up to 5000 entries.
After that, the Track Points awarded for entries, should be based directly on one's hit rate. for example, I currently have a 12.7 percent hit rate. So I would earn 0.127 Track Points per entry. someone with a 0.2 percent hit rate....would earn only 0.002 Track Points for each entry. and those with a zero hit rate would get none at all.

This would prevent the kind of abuse I think can and does happen.

I am sorry, but I see NO reasonable argument that says ANYONE...with less than 100 hits...should EVER outrank someone with over 1,500.

And the solution I am outlining would address this problem and keep the griefers from simply running up the scoreboard.

Let's face it, as it stands now, any idiot could be a griefer...pick out 20,000 random serial numbers to enter...never having seen or possessed the bills, and of course never marking them...and move up to 5th place on our scoreboard....just like that. No effort, no time, no nothing.

I do not believe this is fair to those of us who are working hard to get hits and maintain a high hit rate. those of us who do....should be rewarded for it. since the point of the site is to get HITS.

I would like to see entries less valuble in comparison to hits. Wouldn't it be an easy fix to just move the decimal point? Instead of an entry being worth one point, make an entry 0.1 point or 0.01. The value for hits would remain the same, one point plus one-fifth of your whole number hit percentage.

I'd prefer the scoring for hits remain the same. It's easy to do in your head and it rewards us for our hit percentage.

This also seems like it would be much easier for Markus to reprogram.

Tony wrote:I would like to see entries less valuble in comparison to hits. Wouldn't it be an easy fix to just move the decimal point? Instead of an entry being worth one point, make an entry 0.1 point or 0.01. The value for hits would remain the same, one point plus one-fifth of your whole number hit percentage.

I'd prefer the scoring for hits remain the same. It's easy to do in your head and it rewards us for our hit percentage.

This also seems like it would be much easier for Markus to reprogram.

Thanks for your support, Tony!
And if one wanted to do it Tony's way, it would still help the situation greatly. Although...as it stands now, like said, someone could enter in 20,000 fakes and jump up to like fifth place on our Board...if we moved it to 0.1 TrackPoints per entry, the same person could theoretically do it with 200,000 faked entries. Or 2 million...if we moved it to 0.01. Granted a lot harder to do, and easy to determine fakery at that point.

I like my way because it totally prevents anyone from just faking their way to the top, because you'd also have to get HITS...and a lot of them.
However, I do see Tony's way as probably being easier to program, so, if Tony's way were adopted, t would still be better than the current system, and it would alleviate some problems. but I'd also say that with such a re-program, everyone's Track Points need to be re-figured from jump street. And I do know Markus can do that. we had to do it with mine once, because I'd gotten a lot of faked hits...and after a time, was not getting credit for them as much as I was losing when they were taken away...resulting in a net loss for me. so Markus had to recalculate my score from the beginning and it resulted in a net gain of about 400 Track Points for me. Points that I should have had all along...because what had happened was:

1. Get fake entry and get Track Points associated with the faked hit.
2. Weeks later, with a higher hit rate...discover the fake and have it removed.
3. As a result go down by more Track Points than the faked hit had put me up.

Over time this resulted in about a 400 point difference in my Track Point total. and Markus fixed it.

I only noticed it then because it got to a point where my entries plus hits were higher number than my Track Point total...so I knew something wasn't right.

In addition to what looks like over weighting entries, the main drawback to the current formula for me is that the Hit Bonus is applied at the time of the current hit.

Early on, all of our hit rates are pretty low, so if we find ourselves in needing a "recalc", it takes the Admin to intervene. Maybe this is a good thing, but I think I would prefer something a bit more predictable, such as using our current (for good or ill) hit percentage to calculate our Hit Bonus.

I still support a negative effect on "points" due to lots of trades. I see this show up most noticeably on D. Dave's total.

I will plug Tony's and Kalisiin's ideas into my offline spreadsheet to see what I come up with.

In any case the point is moot without the Admin's buy-in and his time to implement.

I appreciate your efforts in this regard, tim! Seriously, SOMETHING has to be done with entries being weighted as heavily as they are. I mean, say what you will about WG, there is a REASON why their hits are weighted to be about 38 times more valuable than an entry.

For what it's worth...

Turning current bill entries into one-tenth of a point (from a full point) defiantly helps out those with a better hit rate.

With everything else remaining the same...

Kalisiin moves from 8th to 4th, I move from 14th to 9th, Chavo moves from 24th to 17th and AZBundy moves from 28th to 23rd.

In contrast, the biggest movers the other direction are Diamondback Dave from 4th to 9th and Vesuvius from 24th to 27th.

No one else gains or looses more than 2 rank positions under this scenario.

Among those with the lowest Hit Percentages, it would take another 6,000-10,000 Bill Entries (without an increase in their Hit %) to leapfrog the next person ahead of them on the list.

I'm cool with whatever points system the majority wants. I do like both ideas Tim and Tony have discussed.

Well, turning the entries into one tenth of a point...would address the immediate concerns I have had...it doesn't shake up the list TOO much...and is probably easier to program than my ideal scenario would be.

That said, there would have to be a recalculate from jump street for everyone...otherwise those who start now would be at a decided disadvantage. I know Markus can do a "jump street" recalculation.

I would throw my support behind the one-tenth idea as proposed. Though it is not the most ideal...it is probably the best I could realistically hope for, and it DOES seem to have additional support from others....so, count my vote for the one-tenth solution.

I say keep it the way it is. We want to encourage people to enter bills. If we base it only on hits, I believe it would hurt the site. How many users enter a few bills expecting a hit right away. That doesn't happen often. (It took weeks for me to get my first hit). At least if they see some chance at improvemeing their trackscore and their ranking by entering more bills then we might keep them.

I have said it before and will say it again. We can't control if and when our bills are hit. All a user can do is enter more bills in hope of getting hits.

Recently l dropped from 9th place to 10th place when undertaker entered more billls than I did. This is with over a hundred less hits than I have.(only 16 hits total) . Although some users would cry foul over this, I say congradulations to him. Keep entering bills, Keep climbing up the ladder.


The one change I could get behind is whether a user is active or not. I believe that some one who has not been active for over a year should lose some track points. this would encourage anyone who wanted to keep thier ranking to stay active.

Cylon,

Thanks for weighing in. As of now, Markus has not responded to my private email, so nothing is changing.

Markus already has something programed - if you don't log in for a year, your points drop to zero.

Hello,

here my little input:

Already before I considered the idea to lower the points whenever the hit rate does not match the entries.
My idea was so far, whoever is over 5000 entries but has a hit rate lower that 2% does most likely only enter unstamped bills.
However, we kind of want that too, as long as these entries are for real.

So if we have the feeling, a user abuses the system by only using the auto fill function to enter tons of fake bills in order (we have one where more than half of bill entries are all in order), question is: is it possible to always get new bills in order from a bank, constantly???

Another option would be: leave the point system as it is, but only put a limit on extreme cases like
bills>10000 hit rate<1% plus 50%+ of entries are in order = zero Trackpoints and the use of the 20 bill auto fill is not possible anymore.

That would be more fair for a user that really likes to enter bills unmarked just to check how long it takes to get an unmarked hit.
As long as these entries are made in a normal matter of time and not all entries in order that should be fine and even good for our TD.

Let me know what you guys think

Markus

cylon wrote:I say keep it the way it is. We want to encourage people to enter bills.

We do NOT want to encourage abuse. How is it FAIR that someone with less than two months on the site...and only 19 hits...should outrank you...or almost anyone else?

Seriously...what is the PROOF that this guy isn't just entering random serial numbers of bills he has never even seen...or marked?

It's easy enough, with the bill entry page...to start with a valid serial number...and enter the next nineteen serial numbers, whether or not you even have ever had or even SEEN the bills in question?

I DO cry foul. Even TONY doesn't enter 16,000 bills in less than two months, this has GOT to be a faker.

Admin wrote:Hello,

here my little input:

Already before I considered the idea to lower the points whenever the hit rate does not match the entries.
My idea was so far, whoever is over 5000 entries but has a hit rate lower that 2% does most likely only enter unstamped bills.
However, we kind of want that too, as long as these entries are for real.

So if we have the feeling, a user abuses the system by only using the auto fill function to enter tons of fake bills in order (we have one where more than half of bill entries are all in order), question is: is it possible to always get new bills in order from a bank, constantly???

Another option would be: leave the point system as it is, but only put a limit on extreme cases like
bills>10000 hit rate<1% plus 50%+ of entries are in order = zero Trackpoints and the use of the 20 bill auto fill is not possible anymore.

That would be more fair for a user that really likes to enter bills unmarked just to check how long it takes to get an unmarked hit.
As long as these entries are made in a normal matter of time and not all entries in order that should be fine and even good for our TD.

Let me know what you guys think

Markus

Well it sounds like your idea WOULD at least address the sort of abuse I feel may be going on - especially in the case of The Undertaker. Let's face it, NOT EVEN TONY ENTERS 16,000 BILLS IN LESS THAN TWO MONTHS!!

But I STILL think poorer hit rates should not get as much credit for entries...as those with HIGHER hit rates...after all, the POINT of this site is to get HITS...not just a bunch of entries.

Like I said...and you agree, Markus...ANY idiot can enter one bill...and then, with the auto-fill function...enter the next nineteen serial numbers, whether or NOT they were ever in possession of the bills, or if they'd even SEEN the bills. There's just no proof. (In fact...it is just this sort of abuse that I believe caused WG to take away multiple bill entry page!!) Not that I want to see that go. But the auto-fill function should be eliminated for all but definitely trusted users!! I mean someone should have a minimum of one year's time in this ste before that function is open to them. THAT, too...would address this problem.

The system you describe WOULD prevent the sort of abuse I believe is going on in the case of The Undertaker.

Personally...and call me paranoid if you wish...but I don't think it is ANY accident that this guy is from PA. In short, I believe that if I were in say, Raleigh, NC...this guy would suddenly be from, say Asheville.

I truly believe this guy to be a greifer...probably from WG...who has it in for me...there ARE still some people on that site that really abused the hell out of me on those Forums...and have an active hate-on for me.

One way to tell if this is so...check the IP address of the entries, and see if it matches Philadelphia. I got some decent money that says it ISN'T. But it could be.

I WOULD...however, go to the window with heavy money that says this guy is a FRAUD!!

And I'm on record saying so. Even TONY...who enters like nuts...does NOT enter 16,000 bills in less than 2 months. I'd say this guy has some 'splainin' to do....and for the record, I know Tony's entries ARE legit...and I know how he does it...and he also marks all his bills.

Bottom line is this: Someone with THAT MANY entries...and THAT FEW hits...is definitely suspect.

Another way to deal with this...would be to allow people to set their preference for how they want the User List to sort...and add a choice for MOST HITS to LEAST HITS.

I'm sorry, but there is NO FREAKING WAY...that anyone like this guy should be in our top ten. Not with a paltry nineteen hits.

There is a REASON why, on WG - entries are worth about 1/38th what a HIT is. BECAUSE THE POINT OF THIS IS TO GET HITS...NOT JUST STUPID ENTRIES. And I say stupid entries...because I believe in this case, this guy is a faker.

I get straps of ones at the bank all the time. only rarely do i get brand new bills. I have only used the auto fill option once. I wonder how often others use it. How many users would miss it if it was gone. I would not. Could removing that feature help stop abuse.

P.s. I have even asked for new bills and still can't get them most of the time.

Something else to consider here is an autobot or macro script. Programming a Bot to enter hundreds of sequential numbers is elementary computer science. This existed years ago over *there* and some complained about it and the script was blocked/disabled.

Those who were scripting at the time were technically "in the rules", as they had the bills in their "possession" (one of those users was a bank vault teller and had access to a LOT of cash). EJKorvette works at a betting window at a race track (either ponies or greyhounds, I don't know which) and NEVER marks because it gets him in trouble with those in charge.

I don't personally have a problem with a Bot, per se. However, changing the points system so that those who use them are not rewarded certainly seems reasonable.

cylon wrote:I get straps of ones at the bank all the time. only rarely do i get brand new bills. I have only used the auto fill option once. I wonder how often others use it. How many users would miss it if it was gone. I would not. Could removing that feature help stop abuse.

P.s. I have even asked for new bills and still can't get them most of the time.

Exactly. I like the multiple bill entry page...but the auto-fill function could go and I would not miss it much.

dctim wrote:Something else to consider here is an autobot or macro script. Programming a Bot to enter hundreds of sequential numbers is elementary computer science. This existed years ago over *there* and some complained about it and the script was blocked/disabled.

Those who were scripting at the time were technically "in the rules", as they had the bills in their "possession" (one of those users was a bank vault teller and had access to a LOT of cash). EJKorvette works at a betting window at a race track (either ponies or greyhounds, I don't know which) and NEVER marks because it gets him in trouble with those in charge.

I don't personally have a problem with a Bot, per se. However, changing the points system so that those who use them are not rewarded certainly seems reasonable.

Exactly.
I mean...okay, so someone is a bank branch manager with access to bricks and bricks of bills where they could get the serial numbers. So WHAT?? Does that mean that person should have the ability to ENTER all those bills....not mark them...and run up the scoreboard?
THIS is why I like tying the points for entries to the Hit Rate.

EJKorvette is a perfect example.
So he can enter a boatload of bills...but since he doesn't MARK them...how the heck does that help this site?

I know kinda what Markus was thinking when he launched this site...he wanted to reward entries to encourage them to make the site grow. The problem is...this also opens the system to abuse.

Here is my final thought on how best to solve this:

1. Remove the auto-fill function for all but TRUSTED USERS. You have to be on site and active for at least one year before the function comes available to you. (This alone would HELP...as a griefer isn't REALLY likely to want to type all those numbers. But is not, in itself enough, because someone could always cut-and-paste.)

2A. Leave entries as one point each up to the first 5,000 bills. After THAT...tie it to Hit Rate...possibly like this...1% hit rate earns 0.1 Track Points per entry...5% earns 0.5 per entry...12% earns 1.2 per entry. This could be more difficult to program so...alternatively,

2B. Leave entries as one point each up to the first 5,000 bills. After that, drop them to 0.1 - or even 0.01 per entry. Alternatively...

2C. All Entries should be scored as 0.1 Points...or maybe even 0.05 or 0.01 Points per entry for everyone, regardless of hit rate.

3. Run a recalculation on all users, after implementing scoring changes, from jump street...for all user with currently more than 1,000 Track Points (running it on EVERYONE would be time-consuming and not feasible, really.) the reason for this is that it would otherwise be unfair to those who entered the game after the score changes were implemented...that we veterans had the advantage of getting extra score.

4. One other thing I'd like to see is a choice to sort the User List by Total Hits.

5. Also...rather than one year inactive sends you down to zero...it should slowly SLIDE down to zero at one year...start penalizing for ten days of inactivity...and it would immediately re-adjust (remove the penalty) on the next activity.

I'm not sure how much of the above is easy or difficult to program. But 1, one of the 2's, and 3....are essential. this would address the problem. Especially implementation of #1.

One more thought: Increase the number of bills entered...in order to allow the multi-enter page to show. Make them have either 2,000 entries and/or 50 hits. Or some such.

A griefer will not want to spend the time it would take, then. Even a determined griefer has better things to do, really.

so if some one like Gary from wattsburg suddenly started entering bills (he enters alot more than 16000 a month at wheresgeorge) you would also call him a cheater. I think more information is needed before we accuse someone of cheating. It is possible he is a bussiness owner like Gary. I believe it is up to markus to make that call. as for low hit rates, all new users have them. It takes time for bills to spread out and be hit. Although my hit rate is still below 1% it has more than doubled in the last couple of monthes. Which proves the point of hits requrie both many bills and lots of time.

cylon wrote:so if some one like Gary from wattsburg suddenly started entering bills (he enters alot more than 16000 a month at wheresgeorge) you would also call him a cheater. I think more information is needed before we accuse someone of cheating. It is possible he is a bussiness owner like Gary. I believe it is up to markus to make that call. as for low hit rates, all new users have them. It takes time for bills to spread out and be hit. Although my hit rate is still below 1% it has more than doubled in the last couple of monthes. Which proves the point of hits requrie both many bills and lots of time.

No. Wattsburg Gary is a whole different ball of wax. He enters and marks all the bills that come into his store...he is a Commercial Georger. I am of the opinion, incidentally, that Commercial Georgers should be broken out from the rest of the people in the state, but that is not likely to happen.

But Wattsburg Gary...HAS THE HITS TO BACK UP HIS CLAIM TO #1 IN PA....He gets over TWO HUNDRED hits a day!! You're comparing apples to oranges here!

Not only THAT...but the fact that HERE...entry to hit ratio is currently one to one - THERE...entry to hit ratio is 1 to about 38. Again...apples to oranges...not a valid comparison.

And, yeah, maybe you're even right about that...but, then all entries after 5,000 SHOULD BE TABULATED BASED ON HIT RATE.

I would CERTAINLY never call Wattsburg Gary a cheat. But again, he has the hits to back up his position. He certainly has an unfair advantage that us regular folk do not have. Which is why I still think Commercial Georgers should be broken out into their own category. But it won't happen...and what Wattsburg is doing is NOT cheating.

I would say, though, if you happen to be a bank manager...and you are pulling bricks and bricks out of the vault...not even unwrapping them...and entering and not marking the entire freaking brick....then THAT is cheating. another way that would be cheating is this:

Let's say I have possession of a bill F56789012G. (this serial number was just pulled out of thin air, by the way) I do NOT have all the serial numbers that follow it.
BUT...I use the Bill Entry Page and the auto-fill function to fill in as if I did have those bills. THAT is freaking cheating. (and THIS...by the way...is what I think is actually going on)

You can't honestly believe someone with a paltry nineteen hits deserves to be in our top ten...no matter HOW MANY frickin' bills he ENTERS. The HITS are what's important.

Do you think Gary started out with 200 hits a day. I am sure that he had a low hit rate to start just like everyone else. If undertaker is truely marking his bills his hit rate will start to climb. In fact I noticed that he had five hits in the last two days. At this rate he will be over a hundred in the next month. Remember two monthes is hardly anytime for bills to circulate. Unless you also want to question the legitimacy of the hits, which would not surprise me.


If you are so enthralled with how wheregeorge does its rankings maybe you should enter your bills there. I see you already do. You just use a different name Angela

If it isn't broke, don't fix it. If you want WG scoring, then enter there. Why don't you just try to track bills for the sake of tracking bills and forget about points or rankings. That is my new idea, Markus should get rid of the whole scoring and ranking system just so I don't have to read about the complaining of one specific user.

ELECTRIC RED wrote:If it isn't broke, don't fix it. If you want WG scoring, then enter there. Why don't you just try to track bills for the sake of tracking bills and forget about points or rankings. That is my new idea, Markus should get rid of the whole scoring and ranking system just so I don't have to read about the complaining of one specific user.

I agree. Also once you start changing the rules for one person, then everyone will want the rules changed to benefit them.