To the moon Alice.

Trackdollar, the only site that has had bills go to the moon more than 9 times.
http://www.trackdollar.com/report.htm?sess=005AF68592&url=Q1

Matt_How wrote:Trackdollar, the only site that has had bills go to the moon more than 9 times.
http://www.trackdollar.com/report.htm?sess=005AF68592&url=Q1

Bang, Zoom!!

(You aren't the only one here old enough to remember The Honeymooners!)

Kalisiin wrote:

Matt_How wrote:Trackdollar, the only site that has had bills go to the moon more than 9 times.
http://www.trackdollar.com/report.htm?sess=005AF68592&url=Q1

Bang, Zoom!!

(You aren't the only one here old enough to remember The Honeymooners!)

I think you mean re-runs. You have to be pretty up there in years to remember the original broadcast and also fairly wealthy at the time to afford a television.

Of course I mean the re-runs. But I don't think they even play THOSE anymore.

I'm still pretty up there in years, though.

Kalisiin wrote:Of course I mean the re-runs. But I don't think they even play THOSE anymore.

I'm still pretty up there in years, though.

Maybe on cable. 39 is not very old, nobody really is all that old the average person lives 70-80 years. pff.. a grain of sand in the sands of time. The oldest person recorded was Methuselah who lived before the great flood. He lived 969 years as recorded in the Bible. Hardly seems fair we die so young nowadays. Now you being Agnostic or Atheist or whatever you are you might not believe that but perhaps you do see it as accurate history, I don't know. The great flood itself is recorded in way more text than just the Bible. Pretty much every culture has a flood story of some kind so it is pretty evident it did happen. also there is no real scientific explanation why we die when our cells regenerate so often so I don't see it as too unlikely that people once lived several hundreds of years or that we can't simply never die at all. After all we only die when something goes wrong.

Matt_How wrote:

Kalisiin wrote:Of course I mean the re-runs. But I don't think they even play THOSE anymore.

I'm still pretty up there in years, though.

Maybe on cable. 39 is not very old, nobody really is all that old the average person lives 70-80 years. pff.. a grain of sand in the sands of time. The oldest person recorded was Methuselah who lived before the great flood. He lived 969 years as recorded in the Bible. Hardly seems fair we die so young nowadays. Now you being Agnostic or Atheist or whatever you are you might not believe that but perhaps you do see it as accurate history, I don't know. The great flood itself is recorded in way more text than just the Bible. Pretty much every culture has a flood story of some kind so it is pretty evident it did happen. also there is no real scientific explanation why we die when our cells regenerate so often so I don't see it as too unlikely that people once lived several hundreds of years or that we can't simply never die at all. After all we only die when something goes wrong.

Well...I do not want to turn this into a religious topic...but, yes, I am Agnostic...and go regularly to a Unitarian Universalist church. I do not believe that Methuselah really lived to that age...or that even Noah was 600 years old. I don't buy that. If anything, life expectancy has INCREASED...not decreased...in the modern era. Many diseases that once killed us...are treated and cured now. Infant mortality rates are the lowest in the history of humanity.

As to the flood...yeah...there may well have been a flood. A great big flood. But was it brought on by rain for forty days and forty nights? Was it brought on by God wishing to destroy the entire world? Well, if so...then why isn't there EVIDENCE that THE ENTIRE WORLD was underwater? So there may have been a great flood...I do not dispute that. But who says it was caused by a God...whom I do not believe exists? That you are gonna have to prove. Religion is the enemy of science and rational thought.

As to dying...well, we all have to die someday. How else would we make room for all the new people being born? Eventually, we'd simply run out of room on the planet...but, probably long before that happened...we would run out the planet's ability to sustain us. There's only so much in the way of natural resources that we all need to live....food, clean water, breathable air, etc. (and don't give me a story about the loaves and fishes, please)

Anyway, I can see that we likely have very different religious beliefs, and that's okay. I can respect yours (even if I do not agree with them...and even if I think you are wrong) if you can respect mine. (And you can't believe that mine are wrong...because I hold no beliefs.) I do not believe or disbelieve, per se, in a God. I currently disbelieve only because no empirical scientific evidence says that he does exist. I am open to the possibilities...but I, for one, require proof. Faith alone is not enough. (Call me Doubting Thomas if you must.) And if there really IS a God...then how can He be offended by us searching for Him...searching for the TRUTH about Him? Why would he create us with a high degree of intelligence, and then get angry when we USE that intelligence to try to find out about the nature of Him?

I think the question of whether there is...or is not...a God...is one of such importance...that I will forever be an Agnostic. To claim knowledge of the truth is to give up seeking the truth. (After all, if one believes they know the truth...do they keep looking for it??) I, for one, will never stop seeking. To stop seeking is to stop learning. To stop learning...you may as well be dead. That is my view. So there you have it.

Like I said, I do not want to get into a huge religious/philosophical discussion - at least not on the public threads where such discussion usually gets quite nasty, quite quickly....but if you wish to discuss this further in private messages, you are certainly welcome to do so.

Kalisiin wrote:

Matt_How wrote:

Kalisiin wrote:Of course I mean the re-runs. But I don't think they even play THOSE anymore.

I'm still pretty up there in years, though.

Maybe on cable. 39 is not very old, nobody really is all that old the average person lives 70-80 years. pff.. a grain of sand in the sands of time. The oldest person recorded was Methuselah who lived before the great flood. He lived 969 years as recorded in the Bible. Hardly seems fair we die so young nowadays. Now you being Agnostic or Atheist or whatever you are you might not believe that but perhaps you do see it as accurate history, I don't know. The great flood itself is recorded in way more text than just the Bible. Pretty much every culture has a flood story of some kind so it is pretty evident it did happen. also there is no real scientific explanation why we die when our cells regenerate so often so I don't see it as too unlikely that people once lived several hundreds of years or that we can't simply never die at all. After all we only die when something goes wrong.

Well...I do not want to turn this into a religious topic...but, yes, I am Agnostic...and go regularly to a Unitarian Universalist church. I do not believe that Methuselah really lived to that age...or that even Noah was 600 years old. I don't buy that. If anything, life expectancy has INCREASED...not decreased...in the modern era. Many diseases that once killed us...are treated and cured now. Infant mortality rates are the lowest in the history of humanity.

As to the flood...yeah...there may well have been a flood. A great big flood. But was it brought on by rain for forty days and forty nights? Was it brought on by God wishing to destroy the entire world? Well, if so...then why isn't there EVIDENCE that THE ENTIRE WORLD was underwater? So there may have been a great flood...I do not dispute that. But who says it was caused by a God...whom I do not believe exists? That you are gonna have to prove. Religion is the enemy of science and rational thought.

As to dying...well, we all have to die someday. How else would we make room for all the new people being born? Eventually, we'd simply run out of room on the planet...but, probably long before that happened...we would run out the planet's ability to sustain us. There's only so much in the way of natural resources that we all need to live....food, clean water, breathable air, etc. (and don't give me a story about the loaves and fishes, please)

Anyway, I can see that we likely have very different religious beliefs, and that's okay. I can respect yours (even if I do not agree with them...and even if I think you are wrong) if you can respect mine. (And you can't believe that mine are wrong...because I hold no beliefs.) I do not believe or disbelieve, per se, in a God. I currently disbelieve only because no empirical scientific evidence says that he does exist. I am open to the possibilities...but I, for one, require proof. Faith alone is not enough. (Call me Doubting Thomas if you must.) And if there really IS a God...then how can He be offended by us searching for Him...searching for the TRUTH about Him? Why would he create us with a high degree of intelligence, and then get angry when we USE that intelligence to try to find out about the nature of Him?

I think the question of whether there is...or is not...a God...is one of such importance...that I will forever be an Agnostic. To claim knowledge of the truth is to give up seeking the truth. (After all, if one believes they know the truth...do they keep looking for it??) I, for one, will never stop seeking. To stop seeking is to stop learning. To stop learning...you may as well be dead. That is my view. So there you have it.

Like I said, I do not want to get into a huge religious/philosophical discussion - at least not on the public threads where such discussion usually gets quite nasty, quite quickly....but if you wish to discuss this further in private messages, you are certainly welcome to do so.

I think you are thinking of another site where discussion like this gets nasty only because the one overseeing that forum has a strong bias. I commend you for searching for truth. I feel i have found it myself. You don't really need a whole lot of faith to believe in God or at the very least a higher power of some sort. A creator is evident by things created. When you go by a building for example you don't know who built it but you know someone did, well the DNA of even a common house fly is far more complex than the construction of that building. Modern medicine may extend the life of some but others it actually shortens or makes at the very least a poorer quality. I do believe we as humans lived far longer before the great flood and 4,000 years ago the earth was much different than it is now, much flatter or rounder however you wish to put it.

It is reasonable to be skeptical of religion in general. Religion has been either the cause or an excuse for wars and injustice of many kinds. A true follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ however would not go to war. It is just one of many things that prove a religion to be false.

As far as science and the Bible, the Bible and true science are in total agreement. For example long before science proved that the earth was round the Bible stated it was round. Isaiah 40:22.

See, here on these forums we can politely disagree.

Matt_How wrote:

Kalisiin wrote:

Matt_How wrote:

Kalisiin wrote:Of course I mean the re-runs. But I don't think they even play THOSE anymore.

I'm still pretty up there in years, though.

Maybe on cable. 39 is not very old, nobody really is all that old the average person lives 70-80 years. pff.. a grain of sand in the sands of time. The oldest person recorded was Methuselah who lived before the great flood. He lived 969 years as recorded in the Bible. Hardly seems fair we die so young nowadays. Now you being Agnostic or Atheist or whatever you are you might not believe that but perhaps you do see it as accurate history, I don't know. The great flood itself is recorded in way more text than just the Bible. Pretty much every culture has a flood story of some kind so it is pretty evident it did happen. also there is no real scientific explanation why we die when our cells regenerate so often so I don't see it as too unlikely that people once lived several hundreds of years or that we can't simply never die at all. After all we only die when something goes wrong.

Well...I do not want to turn this into a religious topic...but, yes, I am Agnostic...and go regularly to a Unitarian Universalist church. I do not believe that Methuselah really lived to that age...or that even Noah was 600 years old. I don't buy that. If anything, life expectancy has INCREASED...not decreased...in the modern era. Many diseases that once killed us...are treated and cured now. Infant mortality rates are the lowest in the history of humanity.

As to the flood...yeah...there may well have been a flood. A great big flood. But was it brought on by rain for forty days and forty nights? Was it brought on by God wishing to destroy the entire world? Well, if so...then why isn't there EVIDENCE that THE ENTIRE WORLD was underwater? So there may have been a great flood...I do not dispute that. But who says it was caused by a God...whom I do not believe exists? That you are gonna have to prove. Religion is the enemy of science and rational thought.

As to dying...well, we all have to die someday. How else would we make room for all the new people being born? Eventually, we'd simply run out of room on the planet...but, probably long before that happened...we would run out the planet's ability to sustain us. There's only so much in the way of natural resources that we all need to live....food, clean water, breathable air, etc. (and don't give me a story about the loaves and fishes, please)

Anyway, I can see that we likely have very different religious beliefs, and that's okay. I can respect yours (even if I do not agree with them...and even if I think you are wrong) if you can respect mine. (And you can't believe that mine are wrong...because I hold no beliefs.) I do not believe or disbelieve, per se, in a God. I currently disbelieve only because no empirical scientific evidence says that he does exist. I am open to the possibilities...but I, for one, require proof. Faith alone is not enough. (Call me Doubting Thomas if you must.) And if there really IS a God...then how can He be offended by us searching for Him...searching for the TRUTH about Him? Why would he create us with a high degree of intelligence, and then get angry when we USE that intelligence to try to find out about the nature of Him?

I think the question of whether there is...or is not...a God...is one of such importance...that I will forever be an Agnostic. To claim knowledge of the truth is to give up seeking the truth. (After all, if one believes they know the truth...do they keep looking for it??) I, for one, will never stop seeking. To stop seeking is to stop learning. To stop learning...you may as well be dead. That is my view. So there you have it.

Like I said, I do not want to get into a huge religious/philosophical discussion - at least not on the public threads where such discussion usually gets quite nasty, quite quickly....but if you wish to discuss this further in private messages, you are certainly welcome to do so.

I think you are thinking of another site where discussion like this gets nasty only because the one overseeing that forum has a strong bias. I commend you for searching for truth. I feel i have found it myself. You don't really need a whole lot of faith to believe in God or at the very least a higher power of some sort. A creator is evident by things created. When you go by a building for example you don't know who built it but you know someone did, well the DNA of even a common house fly is far more complex than the construction of that building. Modern medicine may extend the life of some but others it actually shortens or makes at the very least a poorer quality. I do believe we as humans lived far longer before the great flood and 4,000 years ago the earth was much different than it is now, much flatter or rounder however you wish to put it.

It is reasonable to be skeptical of religion in general. Religion has been either the cause or an excuse for wars and injustice of many kinds. A true follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ however would not go to war. It is just one of many things that prove a religion to be false.

As far as science and the Bible, the Bible and true science are in total agreement. For example long before science proved that the earth was round the Bible stated it was round. Isaiah 40:22.

See, here on these forums we can politely disagree.

Well, that's nice, but I still don't wish to make a huge discussion on it...not even here. But you tell me this...if science and the Bible are in total agreement, why does the bible insist that the Earth is only some 4,000 years old...and science tells us it is much, much older than that?

I'm sorry, but I have a very real problem with the Bible. maybe because, all too often, the Bible has been used to hurt me...and people like me. It has been used as an excuse to treat my people poorly and unfairly. It has been a source of injustice in my life. I am one of those whom I refer to as a survivor of what I will call "Bible abuse."

For me...the words of God...as in the Bible...have never been - as they were meant - a source of hope, peace, joy, comfort, and love...but rather, a message every bit as comforting as a crown of thorns...full of hate, intolerance, injustice, hell, fire and brimstone. No, thanks, I don't need that kind of message.

The problem, basically, is that far too few people who call themselves Christian...are, in FACT...actually Christian. Once, I said...if someone is truly a Christian, they will not need to tell you...you'll know it by their actions. If they have to TELL you that they are a Christian...then they probably aren't.

This does not apply to you, Matt, as you have basically just told me you are a Christian...because, obviously, I do not know you, except our few online encounters. I have no idea what kind of person you are in day-to-day life. This applies to the people who are around me, with whom I interact. I do believe in Jesus as a historical person...a wise man, a great rabbi...who tried to show us all a better way to live. I do NOT believe he was the Son of God...at least, not in any way different than, say, Joe Blow is a son of God. seeing as I do not strictly believe in any God, anyway...how could I possibly think differently? No, I do not strictly disbelieve...at least not to the point of being an Athiest where nothing would change my mind...but it would take a hell of a lot of proof...and a hell of a lot of change in the way man treats their fellow man...before I would have any reason to believe in a God.

I'd like you to read, and really think about...this article I am going to link to.
An excerpt of it follows...

excerpt wrote:In Methodist Sunday School, we learned that the word “grace” was an acronym standing for “God’s riches at Christ’s expense.” We all deserved eternal hellfire, but because Christ was publicly tortured and then lynched in our place, God would have an easier time dealing with his anger management problem. He’d take it out on his kid instead of us—never mind that this sort of behavior would have been considered reprehensively sinful if it wasn’t God doing it.

http://www.uuworld.org/spirit/articles/175315.shtml

Kalisiin wrote:

Matt_How wrote:

Kalisiin wrote:

Matt_How wrote:

Kalisiin wrote:Of course I mean the re-runs. But I don't think they even play THOSE anymore.

I'm still pretty up there in years, though.

Maybe on cable. 39 is not very old, nobody really is all that old the average person lives 70-80 years. pff.. a grain of sand in the sands of time. The oldest person recorded was Methuselah who lived before the great flood. He lived 969 years as recorded in the Bible. Hardly seems fair we die so young nowadays. Now you being Agnostic or Atheist or whatever you are you might not believe that but perhaps you do see it as accurate history, I don't know. The great flood itself is recorded in way more text than just the Bible. Pretty much every culture has a flood story of some kind so it is pretty evident it did happen. also there is no real scientific explanation why we die when our cells regenerate so often so I don't see it as too unlikely that people once lived several hundreds of years or that we can't simply never die at all. After all we only die when something goes wrong.

Well...I do not want to turn this into a religious topic...but, yes, I am Agnostic...and go regularly to a Unitarian Universalist church. I do not believe that Methuselah really lived to that age...or that even Noah was 600 years old. I don't buy that. If anything, life expectancy has INCREASED...not decreased...in the modern era. Many diseases that once killed us...are treated and cured now. Infant mortality rates are the lowest in the history of humanity.

As to the flood...yeah...there may well have been a flood. A great big flood. But was it brought on by rain for forty days and forty nights? Was it brought on by God wishing to destroy the entire world? Well, if so...then why isn't there EVIDENCE that THE ENTIRE WORLD was underwater? So there may have been a great flood...I do not dispute that. But who says it was caused by a God...whom I do not believe exists? That you are gonna have to prove. Religion is the enemy of science and rational thought.

As to dying...well, we all have to die someday. How else would we make room for all the new people being born? Eventually, we'd simply run out of room on the planet...but, probably long before that happened...we would run out the planet's ability to sustain us. There's only so much in the way of natural resources that we all need to live....food, clean water, breathable air, etc. (and don't give me a story about the loaves and fishes, please)

Anyway, I can see that we likely have very different religious beliefs, and that's okay. I can respect yours (even if I do not agree with them...and even if I think you are wrong) if you can respect mine. (And you can't believe that mine are wrong...because I hold no beliefs.) I do not believe or disbelieve, per se, in a God. I currently disbelieve only because no empirical scientific evidence says that he does exist. I am open to the possibilities...but I, for one, require proof. Faith alone is not enough. (Call me Doubting Thomas if you must.) And if there really IS a God...then how can He be offended by us searching for Him...searching for the TRUTH about Him? Why would he create us with a high degree of intelligence, and then get angry when we USE that intelligence to try to find out about the nature of Him?

I think the question of whether there is...or is not...a God...is one of such importance...that I will forever be an Agnostic. To claim knowledge of the truth is to give up seeking the truth. (After all, if one believes they know the truth...do they keep looking for it??) I, for one, will never stop seeking. To stop seeking is to stop learning. To stop learning...you may as well be dead. That is my view. So there you have it.

Like I said, I do not want to get into a huge religious/philosophical discussion - at least not on the public threads where such discussion usually gets quite nasty, quite quickly....but if you wish to discuss this further in private messages, you are certainly welcome to do so.

I think you are thinking of another site where discussion like this gets nasty only because the one overseeing that forum has a strong bias. I commend you for searching for truth. I feel i have found it myself. You don't really need a whole lot of faith to believe in God or at the very least a higher power of some sort. A creator is evident by things created. When you go by a building for example you don't know who built it but you know someone did, well the DNA of even a common house fly is far more complex than the construction of that building. Modern medicine may extend the life of some but others it actually shortens or makes at the very least a poorer quality. I do believe we as humans lived far longer before the great flood and 4,000 years ago the earth was much different than it is now, much flatter or rounder however you wish to put it.

It is reasonable to be skeptical of religion in general. Religion has been either the cause or an excuse for wars and injustice of many kinds. A true follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ however would not go to war. It is just one of many things that prove a religion to be false.

As far as science and the Bible, the Bible and true science are in total agreement. For example long before science proved that the earth was round the Bible stated it was round. Isaiah 40:22.

See, here on these forums we can politely disagree.

Well, that's nice, but I still don't wish to make a huge discussion on it...not even here. But you tell me this...if science and the Bible are in total agreement, why does the bible insist that the Earth is only some 4,000 years old...and science tells us it is much, much older than that?

l

For starters the Bible does not indicate the age of the earth. Through Biblical chronology only the human race is determined to have an age. It can be deducted that Adam was created around 4026 BCE so humans themselves would then be around about 6035 years The 6000 year mark would be about in 1975. The flood however was roughly 4000 years ago. The creative days are not literal earth days. they are days of God. Probably a better word to be used for day would be era. Those creative days are an undetermined amount of time. Furthermore scientist use something called carbon dating to determine the age of something. This method is not a true science it really is only accurate on things very young and have not been burnt. Only True science is in line with the scriptures alot of science is false.

Matt_How wrote:
For starters the Bible does not indicate the age of the earth. Through Biblical chronology only the human race is determined to have an age. It can be deducted that Adam was created around 4026 BCE so humans themselves would then be around about 6035 years The 6000 year mark would be about in 1975. The flood however was roughly 4000 years ago. The creative days are not literal earth days. they are days of God. Probably a better word to be used for day would be era. Those creative days are an undetermined amount of time. Furthermore scientist use something called carbon dating to determine the age of something. This method is not a true science it really is only accurate on things very young and have not been burnt. Only True science is in line with the scriptures alot of science is false.

I am sorry, Matt, but, respectfully, I am terminating this discussion.
I cannot have an intelligent conversation with someone who would assert that.

ANY science deemed not to be true is thrown out, and is no longer used.

For example, consider the "Theory of H" developed by Max Planck. Before that time, it was believed that there was a substance, called "the ether" through which the earth moved...giving a medium for light to reach the earth from the sun. A scientist thus reasoned that the earth must cut a swath thru the ether as it orbited the sun, and built a machine to detect this. Of course the machine did not work and many scientists of the day were frustrated...but in the end, they concluded that the theory of the ether was not valid, and it was discarded...and replaced by Planck's correct Theory of H.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether

Yet...not so with the Bible. Contradictions abound, and yet, it all still stays in there and a lot of knuckleheads claim it is infallible and one-hundred percent true. (Mind you, this is NOT to say that there is NOTHING in the Bible which is true...or that there is NOTHING in the Bible with value) ...there are many valuable life-lessons in the Bible...the life of Jesus depicts for us a better way to live, if only people would ACTUALLY TRY TO DO IT...but they don't. They call themselves Christian...and yet they fail to act very Christ-like. They don't even TRY to act Christ-like, they go and stab people in the back, and spit on poor people just like everyone else in this damn rotten society does. They are right there, ready to deny gay people equal civil rights, and use the Bible to beat them down and keep them oppressed...REAL CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR!!

The difference between science and religion is easy to see. SCIENCE...is forever questioned, tested, verified or deemed invalid. In science it is never possible to prove anything, because anything can be disproved...in science we use what works until it no longer works. RELIGION on the other hand...is never questioned...always accepted blindly, with no testing, experimentation, no verification. In fact, an unwritten eleventh commandment is THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION!!

Religion would tell us what to think, what to say, what to feel, what to do...and would rob men of their free will.

Try this web-site, maybe it might change your mind.

http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com

P.S. If you want to know WHY I totally reject Christianity...look no further than the actions of your fellow man in this society. Look to the poor, the needy, the oppressed...the suffering. Does anything ever alleviate their suffering? Give them a cause to hope? Are they allowed to dream...to maybe fulfill those dreams...or are they left behind by an unfeeling and uncaring human society...especially in America.

I do not totally reject the possibility of a god...but it would be a far different one than the idealized Christian God...I see far too much evidence in humankind...and it's inhumanity towards man...to believe in the classical Christian God.

By the way, the politicians (Republicans) who claim to be so Christian...those are the ones waging the war on working families and poor people in Wisconsin!!

Kalisiin wrote:

Matt_How wrote:
For starters the Bible does not indicate the age of the earth. Through Biblical chronology only the human race is determined to have an age. It can be deducted that Adam was created around 4026 BCE so humans themselves would then be around about 6035 years The 6000 year mark would be about in 1975. The flood however was roughly 4000 years ago. The creative days are not literal earth days. they are days of God. Probably a better word to be used for day would be era. Those creative days are an undetermined amount of time. Furthermore scientist use something called carbon dating to determine the age of something. This method is not a true science it really is only accurate on things very young and have not been burnt. Only True science is in line with the scriptures alot of science is false.

I am sorry, Matt, but, respectfully, I am terminating this discussion.
I cannot have an intelligent conversation with someone who would assert that.

ANY science deemed not to be true is thrown out, and is no longer used.

This is not correct there is plenty of fudged information in Science and theories such as evolution have not been proven true.

Kalisiin wrote:
Yet...not so with the Bible. Contradictions abound, and yet, it all still stays in there and a lot of knuckleheads claim it is infallible and one-hundred percent true.

I have found no contradiction in the Bible. [/Quote]...there are many valuable life-lessons in the Bible...the life of Jesus depicts for us a better way to live, if only people would ACTUALLY TRY TO DO IT...but they don't. They call themselves Christian...and yet they fail to act very Christ-like. They don't even TRY to act Christ-like, they go and stab people in the back, and spit on poor people just like everyone else in this damn rotten society does. They are right there, ready to deny gay people equal civil rights, and use the Bible to beat them down and keep them oppressed...REAL CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR!! [/Quote] You are right false Christians have used the bible in a very wrong way just as bad police have abused the law. Also there is a difference between hating something someone does and hating them. For example I hate cigarettes I don't hate people that smoke just smoking. As far as civil rights for homosexuals, in general I do not see any homosexuals civil rights being any different than anyone else's What rights do you feel they are being deprived of. They have all the same rights as anyone else as far as I can see. There is this movement for gay right right now. Is it really for rights? It seems to me that it is more of a push for acceptance. They want to be treated like what they are doing is normal and right. I don't get actively involved on either side. that is a political issue I am just simply stating what I have observed.

Kalisiin wrote:
The difference between science and religion is easy to see. SCIENCE...is forever questioned, tested, verified or deemed invalid. In science it is never possible to prove anything, because anything can be disproved...in science we use what works until it no longer works. RELIGION on the other hand...is never questioned...always accepted blindly, with no testing, experimentation, no verification. In fact, an unwritten eleventh commandment is THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION!!

That is not completely accurate there are many things in science blindly accepted such as evolution. Religion is always questioned but some people blindly follow whatever religion they are in even when a ton of their beliefs are found to be NOT a teaching of the book they are to follow.

Kalisiin wrote:
By the way, the politicians (Republicans) who claim to be so Christian...those are the ones waging the war on working families and poor people in Wisconsin!!

I see you fed into all the media hype. True Christians would not be part of any political party. It in fact is one way you can identify if they follow Christ teaching or not. He said to be no part of the world. He in fact fled when they tried to make him an earthly king, but who could have made a better king? The republican party uses these political nominal Christians to gain power. The politicians use religion much like a John may use a prostitute. Get what they want out of them and then get rid of them.

p.s. I did cut out some stuff just simply to shorten things. I answered what I felt were the main points.

Matt_How wrote:

Kalisiin wrote:
ANY science deemed not to be true is thrown out, and is no longer used.

This is not correct there is plenty of fudged information in Science and theories such as evolution have not been proven true.

Wrong. Firstly, you do not understand science...NOTHING can be proven true in science...not even Relativity. That is why it is the THEORY of Relativity...and the THEORY of Evolution. and many experiments and observations have lent credibility to both theories.
Science uses theories...when they work. If they are somehow shown NOT to work...by empirical scientific method...then they are discarded.

And may I note here you seem to have a problem with the fact that Evolution has not been PROVEN to be true...yet you have no problem, apparently...with the FACT that GOD HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN TO EXIST, AND NO RELIGION EVER HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE TRUE.

Matt_How wrote: You are right false Christians have used the bible in a very wrong way just as bad police have abused the law. Also there is a difference between hating something someone does and hating them. For example I hate cigarettes I don't hate people that smoke just smoking. As far as civil rights for homosexuals, in general I do not see any homosexuals civil rights being any different than anyone else's What rights do you feel they are being deprived of. They have all the same rights as anyone else as far as I can see. There is this movement for gay right right now. Is it really for rights? It seems to me that it is more of a push for acceptance. They want to be treated like what they are doing is normal and right. I don't get actively involved on either side. that is a political issue I am just simply stating what I have observed.

Well, to answer your basic question...let's start with the FACT that, often, gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people are often discriminated against in the workplace...and in many places, it is perfectly legal, and the victim has no legal recourse.
Then, let's talk about marriage. What business of it is the State...to dictate how we may love? Assuming you are heterosexual...YOU can marry the person you love, and want to spend the rest of your life with. Your gay friend cannot.
Quite frankly...what they are doing IS normal and right...FOR THEM. So why should they be sanctioned or penalized by society for it? Who are they honestly hurting?

Kalisiin wrote:
The difference between science and religion is easy to see. SCIENCE...is forever questioned, tested, verified or deemed invalid. In science it is never possible to prove anything, because anything can be disproved...in science we use what works until it no longer works. RELIGION on the other hand...is never questioned...always accepted blindly, with no testing, experimentation, no verification. In fact, an unwritten eleventh commandment is THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION!!

Matt_How wrote:
That is not completely accurate there are many things in science blindly accepted such as evolution. Religion is always questioned but some people blindly follow whatever religion they are in even when a ton of their beliefs are found to be NOT a teaching of the book they are to follow.

Wrong. Evolution is accepted because it has been subject to experimentation and observation, and found to be true...at least as far as ANYTHING is scientifically "true." If something were to come along to PROVE evolution was incorrect...science would not continue to insist it was true. They would accept that it was not, and go with what did work. Not so for religion. If I could PROVE to you God did not exist...would you accept that? My guess is that you wouldn't.

Kalisiin wrote:
By the way, the politicians (Republicans) who claim to be so Christian...those are the ones waging the war on working families and poor people in Wisconsin!!

Matt_How wrote:
I see you fed into all the media hype. True Christians would not be part of any political party. It in fact is one way you can identify if they follow Christ teaching or not. He said to be no part of the world. He in fact fled when they tried to make him an earthly king, but who could have made a better king? The republican party uses these political nominal Christians to gain power. The politicians use religion much like a John may use a prostitute. Get what they want out of them and then get rid of them.

p.s. I did cut out some stuff just simply to shorten things. I answered what I felt were the main points.

You notice I said they CLAIM to be Christian...not that they WERE!

Again, I am going to have to respectfully request we terminate this discussion...you are making me angry with your mis-statements, and your refusal to see anything except what you want to see...I am not sure how much longer this discussion can remain civil.

Let me say two things, in closing.

1. I find it astounding that you do not see the contradiction in the fact that you have a problem with evolution, because it is not PROVEN...yet you blindly accept the existence of a God...whose existence also is not proven.

2. I have nothing against SPIRITUALITY. But RELIGION can take a flying jump at the moon, as far as I am concerned. It is nothing but a rule book full of unfulfilled promises if you will only give up everything which pleases you while you are here on this Earth. It stifles intelligence, creativity, and free will. spirituality does not do this...but religion DOES.