canadian penny

Well, it has happened at least in Canada, they are phasing out the penny. They are no longer being made nor re-released once the government gets their hands on them. I have noticed since this has happened an increase in canadian pennies in the US coin rolls. It is up to 2%-4% as it would seem. I think this will simply increase. Might as well use them for something.

This is the stupidest thing EVER.

I have long argued against getting rid of the penny, because one can no longer make accurate change all the time.

What you do...is start issuing a 2-cent piece.  this is not new, we had 2-cent coins before in American history...in fact, I even own one, from the year 1867.

If you start issuing a 2-cent piece...then you can cut penny production by 75%, because, instead of maybe needing 4 pennies in a transaction, you only need one.

In fact, I have long argued to revamp our entire coinage system, which currently makes not a lot of sense on the low and high end.
See, you want your coins, like your bills...to increment by 2 to 2.5 times.

The coinage systems should be as follows

1 cent
2 cent  (previous value x 2)
5 cent (previous value x 2.5)
10 cent (previous value x 2)
20 cent (previous value x 2)
50 cent (previous value x2.5)
(Yes, I am advocating getting rid of quarters!  Although the 20 cent in my scenario COULD be filled by the quarter instead)

In my scenario, without quarters, the maximum number of coins you ever need in a transaction is six.
one 50 cent, two 20 cent, one 5 cent, and two 2 cent.  Six coins.  Ninety-nine cents.

If you still use quarters instead of the 20 cent piece...
one 50 cent, one quarter, two dimes, two 2 cent - still need six coins max for ninety-nine cents...whereas, the current way, you could need eight coins...because there is no 2-cent coin.  And, really, you could need nine, since few cashiers have 50-cent coins currently...so you lose a 50 center, and get two more quarters....for NINE COINS in a transaction max.

Now, if you use my formula...the max is six coins...you can decrease production of all coinage by one third.  Now there's some real savings for you, government! - and all you really need to do...to adopt a system similar to mine is the following:

A. reduce production of pennies by 75%
B. reduce production of quarters by 75%
C. Begin producing 2-cent coins (you'd need to print only about 1/3 as many of these as you currently print ones, to fill need)
D. Begin producing 50-cent cons (same as above)
E. Make the 50-cent coin smaller than current 50-cent pieces, yet still easy to distinguish from a quarter.  

(Incidentally, this is one reason I advocate getting rid of the quarter. You could then make the 50-center about the size of a current quarter...make the new 20-center something different, and now people don't confuse 50-centers with quarters. - But, we could also work it out while keeping quarters)

Just like that, the government now needs to produce 1/3 less total coinage.  And all we did was add a 2-center and a revamped 50-center.

Kalisiin wrote:This is the stupidest thing EVER.

I have long argued against getting rid of the penny, because one can no longer make accurate change all the time.

What you do...is start issuing a 2-cent piece.  this is not new, we had 2-cent coins before in American history...in fact, I even own one, from the year 1867.

If you start issuing a 2-cent piece...then you can cut penny production by 75%, because, instead of maybe needing 4 pennies in a transaction, you only need one.

In fact, I have long argued to revamp our entire coinage system, which currently makes not a lot of sense on the low and high end.
See, you want your coins, like your bills...to increment by 2 to 2.5 times.

The coinage systems should be as follows

1 cent
2 cent  (previous value x 2)
5 cent (previous value x 2.5)
10 cent (previous value x 2)
20 cent (previous value x 2)
50 cent (previous value x2.5)
(Yes, I am advocating getting rid of quarters!  Although the 20 cent in my scenario COULD be filled by the quarter instead)

In my scenario, without quarters, the maximum number of coins you ever need in a transaction is six.
one 50 cent, two 20 cent, one 5 cent, and two 2 cent.  Six coins.  Ninety-nine cents.

If you still use quarters instead of the 20 cent piece...
one 50 cent, one quarter, two dimes, two 2 cent - still need six coins max for ninety-nine cents...whereas, the current way, you could need eight coins...because there is no 2-cent coin.  And, really, you could need nine, since few cashiers have 50-cent coins currently...so you lose a 50 center, and get two more quarters....for NINE COINS in a transaction max.

Now, if you use my formula...the max is six coins...you can decrease production of all coinage by one third.  Now there's some real savings for you, government! - and all you really need to do...to adopt a system similar to mine is the following:

A. reduce production of pennies by 75%
B. reduce production of quarters by 75%
C. Begin producing 2-cent coins (you'd need to print only about 1/3 as many of these as you currently print ones, to fill need)
D. Begin producing 50-cent cons (same as above)
E. Make the 50-cent coin smaller than current 50-cent pieces, yet still easy to distinguish from a quarter.  

(Incidentally, this is one reason I advocate getting rid of the quarter.  You could then make the 50-center about the size of a current quarter...make the new 20-center something different, and now people don't confuse 50-centers with quarters. - But, we could also work it out while keeping quarters)

Just like that, the government now needs to produce 1/3 less total coinage.  And all we did was add a 2-center and a revamped 50-center.

This is what is done with the Euro

The mint is already putting out 50 cent coins that circulate. Whenever I see one in a cashier's drawer, I buy it just so I can circulate it again.

Kennedy Halves have the same problem as dollar coins - the typical register has only 4 usable slots for coin, the 5th is usually configured for personal checks, coupons, etc. With this configuration, cashiers don't see and/or don't use halves or dollar coins.

dctim wrote:The mint is already putting out 50 cent coins that circulate. Whenever I see one in a cashier's drawer, I buy it just so I can circulate it again.

Kennedy Halves have the same problem as dollar coins - the typical register has only 4 usable slots for coin, the 5th is usually configured for personal checks, coupons, etc. With this configuration, cashiers don't see and/or don't use halves or dollar coins.

But this is just the problem.

Halves are too goddamned big. People don't like them.
They need to be re-designed, to be more the size of a quarter. Hence my call to eliminate the quarter and replace with a 20-cent coin.

Can you imagine cash drawers if my plan went...since circulating coins would not get taken out??

You'd need slots for

A. Pennies
B. two-centers
C. Nickels
D. Dimes
E. twenty-centers
F. Quarters
G. Halves

At least seven coin slots.

Kalisiin wrote:This is the stupidest thing EVER.

I have long argued against getting rid of the penny, because one can no longer make accurate change all the time.

There is absolutely no use for a penny. By your arguments we still need half pennies. A nickel is worth far less than a half penny was worth when it was eliminated.

100 years ago, the penny was the smallest coin. A nickel is now worth considerably less than a penny was worth 100 years ago. Rounding to the nearest nickel is more precise than rounding to the nearest penny was 100 years ago.

(Nickels are not needed either, but one thing at a time)

Riley1 wrote:

Kalisiin wrote:This is the stupidest thing EVER.

I have long argued against getting rid of the penny, because one can no longer make accurate change all the time.

There is absolutely no use for a penny. By your arguments we still need half pennies. A nickel is worth far less than a half penny was worth when it was eliminated.

100 years ago, the penny was the smallest coin. A nickel is now worth considerably less than a penny was worth 100 years ago. Rounding to the nearest nickel is more precise than rounding to the nearest penny was 100 years ago.

(Nickels are not needed either, but one thing at a time)

Then I have a proposal for you:

Shop as you regularly would - that is to say, do not deliberately avoid getting pennies, by spending pennies to get up to the next nickel, dime, whatever.  SAVE all your pennies in a jar.  In six months, take them to the bank, and cash them in - then send me a check for the total - I'll even buy the stamp.  I'd say just send me the pennies, but the shipping costs would be a lot higher that way.

How about it, do we have a deal?

Letting you in on a little secret - I deliberately save all coin change.  I NEVER spend it.  It is forced savings I never miss.  A couple years ago, I financed an entire Florida vacation on pocket change which included a fair number of pennies.  I amassed it over two years.  Never missed it - got a nice vacation out of it. (Incidentally, I cashed it in prior to our trip and got 800 dollars in unmarked ones to mark up for TD, and I bombed Florida with a load of them - hence Florida being so highly hit if you look at my profile - and the rest in twenties for places where they would not appreciate getting all ones.) - By the way NC is also highly hit, because I have made frequent visits there, as we plan on moving there next year. But I digress....

I had enough money for all the gas, round trip, to Key West Florida, 3500 miles - plus hotel rooms, with Stops in Fayetteville, NC then Columbus, GA for my nephew's high school graduation, then Orlando for a couple days and then Key West for a couple days.  On the way back, we stopped in Georgia somewhere, and then Baltimore.  A total of ten days on the road.  Not only was the gas and hotel rooms paid for with the proceeds of pocket change...so were my theme park tickets in Orlando - got to do Epcot, Universal, and Sea World.  And my mom was along, so there were two sets of theme park tickets involved - we shared a hotel room.

SO....all you penny-haters...step right up...send ME all your hated pennies, I'll take every blasted one of them - they add up!!  You hate your pennies?  fine, I'll take them.  The offer is extended!!  Would you like my address?

Sorry K, I live in a country that doesn't have pennies.

Also, I do hope you realize that without the penny you would still get the exact same amount of change over the years. You could still do your forced savings, the only difference being the pile of change would be considerably smaller and lighter, yet would be worth the same.

Riley1 wrote:Sorry K, I live in a country that doesn't have pennies.

Also, I do hope you realize that without the penny you would still get the exact same amount of change over the years. You could still do your forced savings, the only difference being the pile of change would be considerably smaller and lighter, yet would be worth the same.

NO...you wouldn't. Not in America. Every asshole in America would UP the price to the nearest nickel...and NEVER down the price to the closest nickel, so - over time, you'd LOSE MONEY.

You do not understand American greed.

Kalisiin wrote:

Riley1 wrote:Sorry K, I live in a country that doesn't have pennies.

Also, I do hope you realize that without the penny you would still get the exact same amount of change over the years. You could still do your forced savings, the only difference being the pile of change would be considerably smaller and lighter, yet would be worth the same.

NO...you wouldn't.  Not in America.  Every asshole in America would UP the price to the nearest nickel...and NEVER down the price to the closest nickel, so - over time, you'd LOSE MONEY.

You do not understand American greed.

They would have to round to the nearest nickel. That needs to be a law for the system to work. Just pay attention to the change they are giving you. If they short you a nickel point it out to them. Even the most dishonest shopkeeper will give you your nickel if you've caught them shorting you. They don't want a scene.

Riley1 wrote:

Kalisiin wrote:

Riley1 wrote:Sorry K, I live in a country that doesn't have pennies.

Also, I do hope you realize that without the penny you would still get the exact same amount of change over the years. You could still do your forced savings, the only difference being the pile of change would be considerably smaller and lighter, yet would be worth the same.

NO...you wouldn't.  Not in America.  Every asshole in America would UP the price to the nearest nickel...and NEVER down the price to the closest nickel, so - over time, you'd LOSE MONEY.

You do not understand American greed.

They would have to round to the nearest nickel. That needs to be a law for the system to work. Just pay attention to the change they are giving you. If they short you a nickel point it out to them. Even the most dishonest shopkeeper will give you your nickel if you've caught them shorting you. They don't want a scene.

No...you miss my point.
Instead of pricing something 82 cents....and then just rounding to nearest nickel - 80 cents...they would change the price to 85 cents and have done with it.
So every time you bought the formerly 82-cent item, you'd now lose 3 cents.  and over time, this adds up.

THAT is how it would happen in America.
You do NOT...repeat DO NOT...understand the greed of American business.

There is NO WAY...they would lower the price of the 82 cent item to 80 cents.  They don't want to eat the 2-cent loss.  They'd rather stick it to you for three more cents.  THAT, my friend, is how America works.  Maybe it isn't that way in Europe, but, in America, it sure as hell is.

If you want proof of this, consider the following:

Did you know, in America, gasoline is priced...by the gallon...and always a price with 9/10 a cent on the end?
That is so that they can put $3.399 on their sign...and you feel like you're paying $3.39 for a gallon, when, really, for all practical purposes, you're paying $3.40 a gallon.

Every gadget on TV is always priced $9.99 or $19.99 ALWAYS one penny below the next dollar...the psychology of it being...hey, you're only paying 19 bucks, when, really, you're paying twenty.

THAT is America.

Your theory fails when you stop and think for a minute and realize that someone almost never buys one item at a time. No business can set prices so that no matter what combination of items you purchase the final price has to be rounded up. And the business is not eating any loss, it evens out for them as much as it does for the consumer.

Riley1 wrote:Your theory fails when you stop and think for a minute and realize that someone almost never buys one item at a time. No business can set prices so that no matter what combination of items you purchase the final price has to be rounded up. And the business is not eating any loss, it evens out for them as much as it does for the consumer.

You're full of shit.
Because first, a lot of people DO buy only one of an item.

Two, it matters not, because they would still change the price UPWARDS to the nearest nickel...so that no matter how many you buy, THEY never have to round DOWN. So you end up paying more.

Consider my 82-cent item...
If you bought six of them, at 82 cents - the total is $4.92. This would get rounded down to $4.90.
Businesses would know this, and not want to eat that two cents. they would know the possibility ALWAYS existed that the price could get rounded down. they would want to cover the possibility.

So they would raise the price to 85 cents each. No rounding needed.

Now, when you buy six of the same item, you pay $5.10 - instead of $4.92 - or rounded to $4.90.

So, you get stuck for 18 to 20 cents on that purchase.

And THAT is how it would happen in America. Quit being annoying, acting like you understand America, when you don't.

American business is GREEDY. They will sooner stick it to you EVERY time...than take a chance that they might once in a while have to eat ANY loss. THEY would not see it as win some, lose some...break even. They want to win all the time. And they would make it so that this happened.

What happens when you factor in sales tax? You are not going to end up with $.00 or $.05 every time. They will have to round up or down.

When you take into account taxes, it is impossible for even the most shady dishonest business to rig their prices so that it is always an even nickel or has to be rounded up. Even if they set every single item to an even .05, once taxes are added, it will come to some random amount. Cash transactions are becoming increasingly rare anyway.

I understand some people are greedy, but in this case it isn't possible to rig prices in that way. Canadian businesses are no less greedy. (Well actually, most businesses in Canadian ARE American anyway.)

This sort of price rigging simply doesn't happen.

edit: I see Electric Red brought up sales tax as well, while I was writing this post.

At the moment, both the penny and the nickel both cost more to produce than their face value. In economic terms, keeping either is a poor choice, but there is more to this than mere economics.

The current size of the US Penny has been around since the mid-1850's.
The Nickel size since the mid-1860's.
The Dime and Quarter sizes go all the way back to 1796.

Eliminating any of these is a huge undertaking due primarily to the political cost, not the manufacturing cost.

dctim wrote:At the moment, both the penny and the nickel both cost more to produce than their face value. In economic terms, keeping either is a poor choice, but there is more to this than mere economics.

The current size of the US Penny has been around since the mid-1850's.
The Nickel size since the mid-1860's.
The Dime and Quarter sizes go all the way back to 1796.

Eliminating any of these is a huge undertaking due primarily to the political cost, not the manufacturing cost.

But adding a 2-cent piece would alleviate much of the problem.  and we HAVE had two-cent coins before in America, I know, I own one, from 1867.
If you add a 2-center into the mix, penny production could be lessened by 75 percent...and you have a new coin with which to honor another dead president.

They changed the make of pennies, incidentally, in 1982, because a penny contained more than 1 cent worth of copper...hence the changing them to an alloy using zinc, a cheaper metal.

Perhaps it is time also to consider changing the nickel to a different alloy composition, to decrease the production cost.
Just adding a 2-center would take care of the problem of pennies, though.

Similarly, they took the silver out of dimes and quarters back in the 1960's...1962 was the last year for silver coins, I believe.

The point is that one can always use different alloys to make the coins cheaper.  How about a zinc coin for nickels, that would have a small coating of nickel?  It would still look like a nickel we are used to.  But it would be cheaper metal, thus cheaper to produce.

Oh, and just for Tim...yes, the large cent was changed, in 1856. The coin was only printed as a pattern in 1856, but for circulation in 1857, as the Flying Eagle Cent. That was replaced in 1859 with the more-familiar Indianhead Penny most folks know about if not have actually seen. Which was then changed again in 1909 to the Lincoln Penny. The first design was the Wheat Ears Penny - or, what most folks called just Wheat Pennies. Then, in 1959 the reverse was changed to depict the Lincoln Memorial - and changed again, in 2009, to the now-printed Shield Penny.

Incidentally, in my collection, is an 1842 Large Cent. This thing is about the size of a half-dollar!

Oh...almost forgot to mention:

Interesting factoid about the two-cent piece...which was abolished in 1873...it was the first time "In God We Trust" appeared on U.S. money.
The two-cent coin. True fact.

I opened up a can of worms  
The problem here is inflation. The cost of material outweighs the cost of producing the money yet people are used to pennies in the USA and many other countries. Also the way sales tax and such are set up in the USA it typically is a penny or two more per small item. Also people horde pennies, rather than just spend them right away they hand the cashier a higher amount and get even more pennies back for example the total come to $1.88 they have five pennies, instead of giving the cashier $2.03 they give them $2.00 thus now having 7 pennies rather than the two they could have. This they do continually and wind up with a jar that they take to a bank or worse yet a coinstar and get money back. The bank might not charge for this but coinstar almost 10% rip off. I spend my change, I have more dollars that way but many people are not that smart and wind up with tons of change. Many of the complaints about coin wold be solved by people simply spending them as if they were money or something rather then collecting them. Eliminated or not I will play along with whatever the powers that be decide regardless of how incompetent they are.

Some of us save the coins, like me, because it is forced savings that you don't miss.

If I spent the coin, and got another dollar, I'd just find somewhere to spend it.

If I run up a bill of $1.02 - I'd rather have 98 cents in change. That goes in my bottle and is forced savings.

Then, when I wrap it all up and take it to the bank, I have "found money" forced saving I haven't missed.

I financed a Florida vacation this way, once. From saved pocket change.

So, no...those of us who save our coins are NOT STUPID. In fact, I think it is very smart...because, when I did the Florida thing...I hadn't missed all the money I had put in the jar...and when I cashed it in, it was over a thousand bucks! That was a thousand bucks of "found money" I had not missed.

for once I agree with Kalisiin. I usually spend dollars and save the change. Every morning I place a quarter in a glass on my dresser then once a year I cash it in. this is my spending money for my annual trip to the shore leave (science fiction) convention. I don't miss this change and it gives me almost a hundred dollar of spending money.

Kalisiin wrote:Some of us save the coins, like me, because it is forced savings that you don't miss.

If I spent the coin, and got another dollar, I'd just find somewhere to spend it.

If I run up a bill of $1.02 - I'd rather have 98 cents in change.  That goes in my bottle and is forced savings.

Then, when I wrap it all up and take it to the bank, I have "found money" forced saving I haven't missed.

I financed a Florida vacation this way, once.  From saved pocket change.

So, no...those of us who save our coins are NOT STUPID.  In fact, I think it is very smart...because, when I did the Florida thing...I hadn't missed all the money I had put in the jar...and when I cashed it in, it was over a thousand bucks!  That was a thousand bucks of "found money" I had not missed.

They are not smart because they can't do the math.

I can do math just fine. I can solve algebraic equations in my head.

About time.
Yeah, it's too hard to game a rounding system to any significant degree, so I suggest going that way, and noncash transactions aren't rounded anyway.
I cash in coins a small amount at a time so I don't have too much money tied up in them and I'm not overwhelmed by sorting/counting the stockpile.

How about YOU round...and send me all your extra pennies?

If I could get a lot of people to do that I'd never have to work again.

I don't like ROUNDING, because I know I will probably wind up getting screwed more often than not.

And there's a fair number of people out there who probably feel the same way...who will resist and fight any effort to get rid of our pennies.

I'm telling you the way to go is to issue a 2-cent coin.

If nothing else, you could then increment towards your goal, if that is what you want.

But no one wants to feel like they got screwed out of four cents one hundred times, and thus lost 4 dollars.  It DOES add up.

At least if you had a 2-cent coin...you could IMMEDIATELY decrease penny production by 75 percent.  folks would probably feel better about rounding to the two-cent.  Or, even do a three center.  But nobody I know wants to go all the way up to a nickel.  That's too much potential money to lose.

I have 20 bucks worth of pennies I have saved up, in a jar.
If there were no pennies, I'd be out 20 bucks.